Judge of the Song Dynasty Chapter 692: Hearing (2)

Fortunately, this is not a trial, but a hearing. The purpose of the hearing is to clarify the essence of the whole matter, not to convict anyone, and Zhang Fei will not act aggressively.

Cheng Fang couldn't answer this question, so Zhang Fei didn't bother with him and asked again: "Cheng Dujian, you just said that the sailors are short of food and clothing. Deputy Cheng has to bear the general responsibility." , then who will bear the other half?"

Cheng Fang was startled and said hurriedly: "The other half will have to be borne by the government and the transportation department in Hebei."

Zhang Fei asked: "Why is this?"

Cheng Fang said: "This is because the transportation department is mainly responsible for the food and clothing, followed by the local government. However, during this process, they always push back and find various reasons to delay the distribution of food and clothing. Our family is also worried about this. There is no way!"

Zhang Fei nodded and asked: "Since the sailors were short of clothes and food at that time, had Cheng Dujian ever thought about shortening the construction period, or waiting until there was enough food and clothing before starting construction at another date?"

Cheng Fang hurriedly said: "The river fortification is an urgent matter. If it is delayed, who will be responsible?"

Zhang Fei said: "Cheng Dujian, can you explain in detail how urgent it is to dredge the Sangu River? What would have happened if it had not been dredged last year?"

Cheng Fang said: "If it is not cleared in time, there may be a risk of flooding. Isn't this urgent?"

Zhang Fei lowered his head and read the copy and said: "According to the information received by the procuratorate, this river fortification, that is, widening the river, salvaging sediment, etc., is mainly for renovation, I wonder if it is?"

Cheng Fang nodded.

Zhang Fei said: "But judging from the conditions of various rivers in Hebei, there are at least five rivers that need to be renovated. If I say that Cheng Dujian's reason can be applied to all rivers with such problems, Cheng Du Does the prisoner agree?"

Cheng Fang thought for a while and then said: "I don't agree, because Sangu River is responsible for the eastward flow plan and should bear the brunt of it and be the top priority."

Zhang Fei said: "But if it was a Biede river, wouldn't Cheng Dujian be so anxious?"

Cheng Fang nodded and said, "Of course."

Zhang Fei lowered his head and glanced at the copy, and said: "But according to the information I learned, Cheng Dujian was so eager to renovate any river. He recruited a large number of river servants, mobilized a large number of soldiers, and relied on people Use naval tactics to quickly regulate river channels."

Cheng Fang fell into thinking again.

Zhang Fei waited for a while and then asked: "Since this fortification is so important and a top priority, why didn't Supervisor Cheng prepare it in advance? In my personal opinion, clothing and food should be the most important thing. Basically, the art of war says that before the three armies move, food and grass go first. I wonder what reason Cheng Dujian had for moving the three armies first?"

Cheng Fang remained silent.

Zhang Fei did not press for further questions, but instead asked: "Just now, Deputy Ambassador Cheng once said that the sailors were returning home on the run. If they were not comforted, things might change. Do you agree with this?"

Cheng Fang thought for a while and replied: "I think Deputy Chief Cheng is making a fuss out of a molehill. The problem is not that serious."

Zhang Fei asked: "Then what did Supervisor Cheng think Deputy Cheng should do at that time?"

Cheng Fang said: "What we mean, Deputy Ambassador Cheng's response is correct, but his statement is a bit exaggerated. Moreover, if Chanzhou can deliver clothes and food to the river earlier, this kind of thing will not happen. Situation. If food and clothing are under our family’s control, then it is our family’s responsibility, but these food and clothing are not under our family’s control.”

Zhang Fei couldn't help but ask again: "Why didn't Cheng Dujian communicate well before starting work? It's like Cheng Dujian appealed to His Majesty before, begging His Majesty to allocate sailors to Cheng Dujian."

Cheng Fang fell into silence again.

Zhang Fei nodded, "Thank you, Mr. Cheng."

As he spoke, he looked at Wang Gong again and whispered: "Please ask Bachelor Wang to come out and testify. He seems a little anxious."

Wang Gong subconsciously glanced at Wang Anshi, who was gasping for air. The corner of his mouth twitched slightly, and then he spoke, asking Wang Anshi to come out and testify.

After hearing this, Cheng Fang felt completely deflated and slumped down on the chair.

Terrible!

This is really scarier than the rumors say.

If you specifically ask someone something you don’t understand, how will they answer you?

Wang Anshi was just anxious about Cheng Fang's IQ, not in a hurry to play. When he came to the front, he didn't have his usual self-confidence at all. Instead, he came to the court wearing a mask of pain and sat down. Beside Cheng Fang.

Looking at this pig teammate, my heart feels cold.

After the first attempt, he secretly swore that he would never testify in court again. There was no such pleasure as a court argument, only a strong smell of constipation. After all, he was being beaten passively and was not allowed to fight back. .

It’s so terrible!

Zhang Fei turned over another page of copy, glanced at it a few times, then raised his head and looked at Wang Anshi with a smile, "First of all, I would like to thank Bachelor Wang very much for taking time out of his busy schedule to attend this hearing."

"This is my duty."

Wang Anshi responded lightly, but he was very cautious in his heart, and his eyes secretly paid attention to Zhang Fei's expression changes.

Zhang Fei nodded and added: "The main reason for inviting Bachelor Wang to attend this time is to clarify one thing, and that is the issue of Cheng Dujian's power."

Having said this, he lowered his head and glanced at the copy again, "According to our procuratorate's investigation, it was on Wang Xueshi's suggestion that the imperial court established the Hebei River Water Conservancy Department, and Cheng Dujian was in charge of the entire Hebei water conservancy project. ."

Wang Anshi nodded and said: "Yes."

Zhang Fei said: "Scholar Wang, can you explain why we set up this river water diversion department?"

Wang Anshi said: "Because the Dongliu Plan is a large project involving dozens of states and counties, in the past, each state was responsible for its own affairs and supervised each other, resulting in frequent constraints on each other and delays in construction. , making it impossible to control the flood in time. If something went wrong, they would shirk responsibility from each other, and the court would not know how to hold it accountable. In this situation, it would be difficult to meet the needs of the project. The purpose of setting up the River Water Conservancy Department is to coordinate everything."

Zhang Fei said: "I wonder what the authority of the River Water Conservancy Department is?"

Wang Anshi said: "It is to build rivers."

Zhang Fei said: "Regarding the recruitment of labor, the deployment of generals, and the allocation of food and clothing, do these belong to the authority of the River and Water Conservancy Department?"

Wang Anshi pondered for a while and said: "It should be said that the establishment of the River Water Conservancy Department issued orders based on the needs of river fortifications. The state capitals along the way then recruited laborers, mobilized money and grain, and rectified the rivers based on this plan.

Among them, the Metropolitan Water Superintendent, the Transportation Department, the Supervisory Censor, and the local general magistrate can supervise the fortifications. In the past, once they disagreed, it would be difficult to start the fortifications. Now, the River Water Conservancy Department has to be established as the supervisor. Lord, this phenomenon can be avoided.

Here, I would like to explain one more thing. Most of the fortifications in our dynasty are mainly responsible for soldiers from various places. Generally, they do not call for labor to prevent people from delaying their farm work. However, river fortifications are an exception, because river fortifications often require more people. Manpower and material resources will still be recruited from the laborers along the river. Sailors are not among them. The River Water Conservancy Department does not have the right to call in sailors. This needs to be decided by His Majesty and the imperial court. ”

Zhang Fei asked: "Can the River Water Conservancy Department make its own plan, or does it need to be reported to the court?"

Wang Anshi nodded and said: "Of course it needs to be reported to the court. Only with the court's permission can the River Water Conservancy Department be able to assign tasks to states and counties."

"Thank you, Master Wang, for explaining it to us in detail."

Zhang Fei said: "But one thing I still want to know is, are there any restrictions on the process of recruiting labor in local governments?"

Wang Anshi thought carefully and said: "There is no fixed time limit for husband's service. There are some days and some years. However, there is a saying among the government and the people that those who are deployed before spring plowing are called spring husband. Those who are dispatched due to urgent fortifications are called anxious men.

There are also regulations that those who are recruited within 500 miles from the place of service are "official husbands" and must engage in this corvee; those within 500 to 800 miles from the place of service can pay for the service.

At the same time, our dynasty is different from the previous dynasties. Our dynasty also stipulates that the husband's grain is two liters per day. This rule was set during the Taizu period. ”

The Tang Dynasty's two taxes stipulated that service could last up to forty days, but the Song Dynasty did not have this provision, especially for river service, which was very vague.

Zhang Fei said: "According to what Wang Xueshi said, the number of laborers to be recruited and the duration of labor are all based on the needs of the river defense fortifications."

Wang Anshi nodded and said: "It can be said that it is just that there are too many labor conscripts, and it is not an emergency. It needs to be reported to the court first."

Zhang Fei said: "In non-emergency situations, the number of labor conscripts needs to be reported to the court."

Wang Anshi thought for a while and said: "There are no specific regulations on this. Generally, the states and counties along the river will recruit slave laborers every year. If the number exceeds the usual number, it should be reported to the court."

Zhang Fei asked: "If it is not reported to the court, does it violate the system?"

Wang Anshi hesitated for a while and said: "In fact, it is not a violation of the system, but our government has a complete supervision system. But if someone provides evidence to impeach the Minister of River Defense for abusing people's power, the court will immediately send people to investigate. If it is true, If such a phenomenon exists, it will be criminalized.”

Zhang Fei said: "Does the court have a system to judge what constitutes an abuse of people's power?"

Wang Anshi said: "This mainly depends on whether the local people are in dire straits due to hard labor."

Zhang Fei asked again: "How can we say that the people are in dire straits?"

Wang Anshi looked at Zhang Fei unhappily, you are just making excuses. “Does Prosecutor Zhang not understand the meaning of people’s livelihood?”

"I understand."

Zhang Fei nodded and asked: "But I want to know clearly, how to determine whether the people in a county are in dire straits. For example, in a county, if everyone can't eat, the people are in dire straits, or if half of the people can't eat, the people are in dire straits."

Everyone present was confused by this question.

Including Zhao Xu was also thinking, how should we deal with the desperation of the people?

Wang Anshi also thought for a long time, "There is no judgment in this regard. It is usually made by local officials based on the situation."

Zhang Fei asked again: "Scholar Wang just said that labor was called for based on the needs of the fortifications. Can the court accurately determine how much labor should be required for a certain fortification?"

Wang Anshi shook his head and said: "No! Because it is difficult to judge."

Zhang Fei asked: "How much to widen, how much to dig, and how much each slave can do every day. Can't experienced officials give an estimate based on this?"

Wang Anshi said: "River defense fortifications are very complicated. It often takes one or two months to recruit labor. Coupled with the differences in weather and soil quality, it is difficult for the river defense minister to give an estimate."

Zhang Fei nodded and said: "Regarding local finance and river defense finance, is there a clear authority relationship?"

Wang Anshi said: "The main responsibility for river defense finance is the Transshipment Department, and the Transshipment Department also has the authority to supervise river construction. As I just said, before the establishment of the River Water Conservancy Department, if the Transshipment Department feels there is a problem, it is You can refuse to allocate money.

But this has also led to many times when the transshipment department has been the culprit for delaying river fortifications. That is why I suggested that your majesty set up a river water conservancy department. Even now, if the transshipment department thinks there are problems with the fortifications, they can immediately write to the court. , it just needs to be led by the Minister of River Defense, and you cannot easily refuse to allocate money and food unless you have ironclad evidence that there is indeed a problem. ”

Zhang Fei asked: "What issues can be reported to the court?"

"Any questions."

Wang Anshi said: "For example, some people are depriving their husbands of their food, abusing people's power, engaging in corruption, etc."

Zhang Fei said: "Occupying people's fields and destroying people's houses, do these count?"

Wang Anshi nodded and said: "These can all be counted."

Zhang Fei asked: "Does not reporting it count as a violation of the system?"

Wang Anshi said: "The imperial court is supervised by censors."

As long as Zhang Fei asked him and it was not against the rules, he would avoid answering. He knew that such a situation would not exist in such a large fortification.

Zhang Fei asked again: "Does not reporting it count as a violation of the system?"

Wang Anshi had no choice but to say: "It cannot be regarded as a violation of the system, but it can be regarded as a crime of dereliction of duty."

It is better to avoid the more serious ones, because the crime of dereliction of duty generally does not belong to the judiciary, but to the administration.

Zhang Fei said: "Suppose that when widening the river, people's fields and houses need to be expropriated. Does this need to be reported to the court first? Or can it be expropriated first and reported later? In other words, there is no need to report it."

Wang Anshi said: "This kind of matter is usually decided by the local government and the river water conservancy department. If you have to ask the court for instructions first, the construction schedule may be delayed."

Zhang Fei said: "But after looking through many documents, most river defense fortifications do not have a specific construction period. For this case, in all the relevant documents, there is no construction period specified. The only similarity is that Chengdu Supervisor believes that this is very urgent, but There is even no relevant copywriting, and it is recorded that it must be completed within a few months."

Wang Anshi thought for a while and said: "Of course it is better to complete it as soon as possible. If you encounter another flood before your fortifications are completed, you will have to bear the main responsibility, and it will not be easy for the Minister of River Control."

Zhang Fei smiled and nodded, then asked: "In other words, the Minister of River Defense can requisition civilian fields and houses at will according to fortifications."

Wang Anshi said: "Of course it cannot be requisitioned arbitrarily, and the local government also needs to record it."

Zhang Fei said: "If the local government prevents the Minister of River Control from expropriating a piece of land, who should take the lead?"

"Of course he is still the Minister of River Defense."

Wang Anshi said: "If the local officials feel that it is unreasonable, they can write to the court."

Zhang Fei asked: "According to what Wang Xueshi said, it is difficult to judge the abuse of people's power. It is difficult to judge how long the construction period will be. It is difficult to judge the conscription of farmhouses. The only thing that can be judged is corruption and bribery, but the judiciary is very particular. There is no evidence, that is to say, unless there is corruption or bribery, otherwise it will be difficult for the judiciary to intervene."

Wang Anshi said: "Of course, the judiciary can intervene in specific matters and specific judgments."

Zhang Fei asked: "Suppose that the imperial court ordered to widen the river by five feet, but accidentally widened it by five feet and destroyed people's fields. Can the justice hold the minister of river defense accountable?"

You set a trap for me again. Wang Anshi couldn't help but cursed secretly. If he said this, Cheng Fang would feel cold. Suddenly, he had a thought in his mind and said with a smile: "I think you are asking these questions just because you don't feel hurt when you stand and talk. You have not managed the river. I don’t know the difficulties involved. Everyone wants to be perfect, but often they just can’t do it.

Although some people may be affected by this, more people will be protected from floods, and the country will have long-term peace and stability. ”

Zhang Fei said: "Xueshi Wang has misunderstood. These questions of mine are not to accuse anyone of not doing their best. I just want to ask one question clearly, that is, whether there is any law to follow in the whole matter. This is for It is crucial for our procuratorate to prosecute. If there is no basis for prosecution, then why should our procuratorate prosecute?"

Wang Anshi thought for a while and said: "It is indeed difficult for the public security system to determine matters on the river."

Zhang Fei smiled and said: "But at present, it seems that the old judicial system is actually difficult to judge. Some people say that people's power is abused, while others say that there is no abuse of people's power. In the end, there is no specific judgment standard."

Han Qi stroked his beard and smiled: "I finally understand. The purpose of his hearing is to point out the bad government, not to target anyone."

Fu Bi said: "You can only tell one of them."

Han Qi asked: "What is the second one?"

Fu Bi said: "For things like this, the court can punish you. It depends on whether the officials are willing. But if detailed standards are formulated, the public prosecutor and the law can intervene."

Han Qi suddenly realized and said: "In other words, before this, the public prosecutor and the law cannot intervene."

Fu Bi nodded slightly.

Wang Anshi thought for a while and said: "Indeed, it is impossible to estimate accurately at present, but the court has realized this, so I added agriculture and water conservancy to the School of Business."

If you learn so well, you will take the opportunity to advertise. Zhang Fei suppressed a smile and said, "Thank you, Bachelor Wang."

Wang Anshi glared at him covertly, stood up and left quickly, not wanting to stay for a second longer.

Next, Zhang Fei invited Sima Guang over again. This must be reciprocal. If you invite Wang Anshi but not Sima Guang, be careful that Sima Guang ignores you for three days.

Sima Guang sat next to Cheng Yi, looking at Zhang Fei with burning eyes, as if urging him to ask quickly, I can't wait to tear the thief apart with my hands.

Zhang Fei understood the idea and asked directly: "I asked Bachelor Sima to come up and asked clearly about the power of the Minister of River Defense. I wonder if Bachelor Sima agrees with Bachelor Wang."

"What he said just now is sheer nonsense."

Sima Guang immediately reprimanded.

Wang Anshi seemed to have expected this and shook his head in disgust.

Zhang Fei asked: "How do you say this?"

Sima Guang said: "If we follow what he said, the Minister of River Defense can be lawless, and can even recruit people from a state to serve, and wantonly destroy people's farmland, but how is this possible?"

Zhang Fei said: "Are there any relevant system restrictions?"

"Of course there is."

Sima Guangdao: "The power of the Minister of River Defense is only to supervise whether local governments have built rivers according to the plans drawn up by the imperial court. He should, as you just said, inspect the river conditions first and formulate a plan, such as how much to widen and what is needed. How much labor and how long will it take to complete it?

This number does not need to be specific, but there must be at least a rough number, and then it is submitted to the court, and the court decides whether to adopt it.

If it is adopted, the imperial court will order the local government, and the local government will act in accordance with the order. This is called acting in accordance with the law. ”

He looked excited, as if he had been holding it in for too long.

Zhang Fei said: "But I have checked the relevant systems. It is true that there is no standard system, and the powers of the Minister of River Defense are not clearly defined."

Sima Guang hummed: "That's because the River and Water Conservancy Department is a newly established government agency, and naturally there is no perfect system. But if the River and Water Conservancy Department can decide everything, wouldn't it be against the laws of our ancestors? In addition, the imperial court has not abolished the old and perfect supervision system, so the relevant supervision departments can still check and balance this system and set up the River Water Conservancy Department."

Zhang Fei nodded and said: "But even as Bachelor Sima said, the problem remains, how to judge whether people's power is being abused, and how to judge whether private fields and houses should be included in fortifications. There is no labor, money and food required for fortifications. Specific provisions.

Assuming that the previous supervisory system is still effective, how do these supervisors determine these issues? As Wang Xueshi said, he thinks two people are needed, but you think only one person is needed. Two people are an abuse of people's power. , this work will never be completed, and it will be difficult for the judiciary to intervene. ”

Sima Guang nodded and said: "You are right. If there is a set of standards, it would be very good. This aspect does need to be improved."

Zhang Fei asked: "Whose responsibility is this?"

"It belongs to...!" Sima Guang suddenly glanced at Zhang Fei and said: "It belongs to us ministers."

But then he immediately added: "But the purpose of water control is to prevent floods for the people. If we waste money and waste money to control the water, leaving the people homeless and without farmland, what is the gain?

Take this case as an example. Is it really necessary to expand the river channel in the coldest month of winter and when there is a lack of food and clothing? Even if this task is completed, it is actually not enough to resist the flood. This is not Naturally, one day's work cannot be done in a hurry.

Emperor Yang of the Sui Dynasty built the canal, and Emperor Taizong of the Tang Dynasty also built the canal. The results were completely opposite. The reason is that Emperor Taizong of the Tang Dynasty would sympathize with the people and make a very complete plan at the same time. He would never rush into it. The construction of the canal lasted throughout the entire Tang Dynasty. towards.

The reason why Cheng Dujian urged them to rush to work was because he was so happy about success and did not care about the life and death of the soldiers. Could it be that the imperial court wanted to encourage such behavior.

Taking history as a mirror, we can see that ups and downs and being hasty for a moment will often lead to worse consequences. If Deputy Ambassador Cheng turns away the sailors and makes the sailors think that they will die anyway, then what will they do? What kind of thing.

Although it is impossible to determine how much labor is an abuse of people's power, it can at least be determined based on the current urgency of fortifications and local people's livelihood conditions to determine whether there is an abuse of people's power and whether people's fields and houses are damaged. ”

Zhang Fei nodded and said: "What Bachelor Sima said makes sense, but the procuratorate cannot act according to reason, but should follow systems, rules, and laws.

There seems to be no accurate criteria for judging the charges against Cheng Dujian. ”

This guy is sometimes more stubborn than me. Sima Guang said: "Why not? You can go check and see how many acts of favoritism and perversion of the law were involved in recruiting labor."

Zhang Fei said: "But the specific recruitment of labor is done by the local government. If there is a problem, the local government should be held responsible. The establishment of the River Water Conservancy Department does not directly participate in the process of recruiting labor."

Sima Guang said: "They are just obeying the orders of the River Water Conservancy Department."

Zhang Fei said: "In the order establishing the River Water Conservancy Department, does it specify that labor can be drafted in illegal situations?"

Sima Guang said anxiously: "But the order to set up the River Water Conservancy Department is to force local officials to disobey the law."

Zhang Fei said: "But Deputy Ambassador Cheng refused Cheng Dujian's order on the grounds of law."

".?"

The loop is closed.

Sima Guang said feebly: "Because they are worried about being retaliated by Cheng Dujian."

Zhang Fei said: "Regarding this question, I also asked Deputy Ambassador Cheng just now. Does Bachelor Sima have a different answer?"

"No!"

Sima Guang closed his eyes.

It’s really hopeless.